well today I’m going to look at an ongoing and ridiculous mess of inaction about the now infamous KTM 790 and 890 Camshaft wear issues.
I have kept quiet until now on this point because without more real facts, there was just too much conjecture, Even the so called statement from KTM was then summarily dismissed by them as a fake document that hadn’t come from them at all, even though they admitted most of the facts were right.
So where to start?
Well, to give anyone who doesn’t know a bit of background, there has been a shitstorm for what seems like forever now about self destructive cams on the various 790 and 890 engined bikes.
Some talk about cam lobe wear, there are others where the cam seems to eat into the head itself and the list of complaints has gone on and on for years. All of that time we have had a complete refusal by KTM to take any responsibility or acknowledge any possibility of a design failure.
Most of the issues were on pre-2021 790 Adventure and Duke models. But, there have been similar claims affecting later KTM 790 and 890 Adventure and Duke models, along with Husqvarna’s Norden 901’s.
Every man and his dog has a theory about what is causing the premature wear, so I have been watching and listening until I figured out what I think is the real story and what has really been happening, and why KTM may have dealt with it like they have.
That will lead on to another story, but it all takes time.
Without wanting to sound too biblical.
In the beginning, Motorcycle News contacted KTM UK about the issues being reported. And it was disclosed that the problem was believed to have been caused by poor oil feed pressure on pre-2020 models and overly narrow camshaft followers on pre-2021 bikes.
Now come on KTM, which is it?
Or was it more than that?
After contacting KTM again, KTM UK acknowledged the issue, but said it had only occurred in 59 bikes (in the UK) but they did tell MCN that,
“The camshafts used on the LC8C platform have no inherent defect.”
and
“The affected components meet the technical specifications for their intended use”
So they obviously didn’t intend for you to ever start or run any of the bikes with an LC8 engine then!!!
They went on to say
“The hardness of the camshafts and the width of the finger followers, as well as lubrication of these components was all within tolerance.”
KTM went on to say that the issue had already been resolved by introducing wider finger followers for 2021 models and an additional oil screen for 2020 models.
Now tell me, how do wider finger followers solve an oil feed pressure issue?
That oil screen is a story of more incompetence in its own right but I will come to that later.
This was all done not to solve or in acknowledgement of the problem, but in KTM’s words
“to improve the overall performance and quality of the engine”.
Yes, right, Honest Mr Pierer.
Both innovations apparently simultaneously resolved all of the contributing factors solving the problem completely. Or not as you will have heard.
And this is where many affected people are rightly angry. They are all well out of pocket after buying a new KTM and then realising the KTM guarantee has more holes in it than a spray nozzle at a car wash.
We all know now that the LC8 camshaft issue is much larger than KTM has acknowledged, and it still has not been resolved.
A Facebook group called “KTM Failed Camshafts – 790/890 & 901” was set up and over 9000 members began posting the story of their complaints complete with pictures of the LC8 engine’s camshaft issues.
It appeared that the public opinion got KTM’s attention. Because in a post apparently made by KTM on the group’s page, the Austrian company said
“ They would like to extend their apologies to the people who feel affected by the camshaft topic.” They also said, “ They see and hear all the feedback, whether it’s online, via authorized KTM dealers, or simply through community chatter.”
But they still didn’t accept their was a problem, that would cost them too much, the bean-counters at Pierer Mobility said so.
Anyway, as a result, KTM said it has been in communication with its dealers on how to inspect camshafts if customers report issues on the 2018, 2019, and 2020 KTM 790 Duke and 790 Adventure.
Because it didn’t arrive until 2021, the Norden slipped past this, but regardless, as far as the corporate response was concerned, the issue was over.
So KTM acknowledged customer dissatisfaction, but still wouldn’t accept there was a real problem.
Does that sound familiar?
“I’m sorry we made you feel that way” is very different to a true “sorry, we messed up” in my view.
They went on and on, saying,
“Investigations have shown that a large proportion of the camshafts that are the subject of complaints are in perfect working order. In these cases, it is not a question of wear, but mostly just discolouration or run marks that have formed on the running surface of cams or on the bearing points of the shafts and that these can be easily removed by cleaning.”
Really??
They go on to say,
The overall quality and integrity of the camshaft itself is not the problem.
So it isn’t their fault, somehow.
Amazing how a bit of discolouration can make an engine run so badly eh?
Interestingly, KTM then went on to recommend that if owners experience certain symptoms like “…poor starting, clearly audible, or unusual running noises from the engine, or noticeably reduced engine power…” they should take their machines to an authorized KTM dealer.
Why? So they can clean off the discolouration?
Once at the authorized KTM dealer, IF the cams are found to be damaged, KTM says, “the cost of replacing the camshafts will be borne by KTM under a goodwill scheme.”
Note NOT the guarantee.
But, and here is the kicker,
If the dealer decides there is no issue, you the customer are then liable for the cost of the strip and rebuild, and you get the same engine issues back.
They did say that for those who may have already paid for replacement camshafts from an authorized KTM dealer, KTM will re-examine new goodwill applications through the authorized KTM dealer network.
In KTM’s exact words, “subsequent goodwill may be considered”
Note “may be considered” not, will be sorted at our costs.
So basically they are still making no promises at all except to fit an oil strainer that makes the problem worse.
Remember, at this point, ALL THE PROBLEMS HAVE BEEN SOLVED says KTM and Pierer Mobility.
Then they go on again
As part of the continuous development of our products and to improve the quality and wear behaviour of the engine, we have now introduced wider rocker arms from model year 2021.
so wait, which is it again? The rocker arms? Or the oil feed?
And why is it if that was the real solution that 790 and 890 engined bikes are still having the same problems? Now fairly well established on the 890 and Husky 901 too.
The exact wording was I believe
“If customers have already ordered a camshaft replacement for affected models from an authorized KTM dealer in the past, KTM will re-examine new goodwill applications through the authorized KTM dealer network. If the conditions explained in this statement and in the communication to the authorized KTM dealer network are met, subsequent goodwill may be considered.”
So again we get corporate spiel that says, I’m not accepting there is a problem BUT.
Then we get the next update
KTM representatives and for that bit read Pierer Mobility, the parent company, stated that the Facebook post claimed to be posted by KTM was not posted by the company, but was generally accurate.
Really?
So are we just being fed more from the back end of a bull? Or can we surmise that if it wasn’t an official KTM announcement, but was accurate, is there now a whistleblower? Otherwise, how could the information be so accurate?
KTM still says that only 2018 – 2020 790 Adventures and Dukes are affected and that later models are not.
Therefore no KTM790’s after 2021, no KTM 890’s and no Husqvarna Norden 901’s should have a cam issue right?
So why have they? Why are the 890 engines still doing the same thing?
Still the only official response is that
“if your bike has one or more of the noted symptoms, you should have it checked by an authorized KTM dealer. The dealer will then inspect the cams and if the cams are found to be defective, KTM will cover the cost of parts and labour regardless of the fact that the bike’s warranty has already expired. However, if the cams are found to be in satisfactory condition, the owner will be responsible for the labour to check them”.
Now although there have been many conversations about the cams, cam followers and various hardening issues, I have always thought that the main issue was indeed the oil supply to the head.
If you look inside as you can see here, there is just one tiny gallery for the main oil feed. It is just miniscule, and that is only the first and most basic of observations.
Here I will turn to someone who has much more engineering knowledge than me and tell you that Matt, the Dirty Garage Guy, has been doing a far deeper dive into this issue. What he has discovered is fascinating on many levels, both personal, and corporate.
I also want to give a shout out to ADV Charlie and you should go and look at his story too I will link it in the description.
But first, let us think about KTM’s first FIX, The oil strainer. As you have seen, we have a very small narrow gallery feeding oil up to the head, now I don’t care how good your workmanship is, engines, especially new engines, will shed swarf as the engine components move against each other.
So, you have a known problem with oil feeds, and a narrow gallery to the head, but you decide to put an oil strainer in that small gallery,
What bright spark thought of that?
In no time at all that tiny filter screen will be blocked by swarf and the oil feed killed even more, unless you take the head off to replace the screen every few hundred miles of course.
How did any engineer come up with that solution I hear you say?
Well, the easy answer there is, I don’t think they did.
No self respecting engineer would do something so obviously ridiculous.
So who made that decision?
Bean-counters perhaps?
Did they work out it would cost them less to announce this as a fix rather than fund a recall?
Just push the problem further down the line and hope people forget?
I will let you answer that one.
With any big corporation like the Pierer Mobility group, it will always come down to the money. It may be that that KTM announcement was from someone within KTM, but that it was then overruled by the parent company who distanced themselves from it.
Either way I think it is pretty obvious the information came from somewhere within the KTM company. Could that whistleblower be one of the disgruntled engineers or other disillusioned staff?
And this brings me to the 2nd point of today’s video, which I was already doing as a separate video, but it becomes relevant and could be the whole context here.
Because Pierer Mobility and the KTM group recently announced a whole raft of things to the shareholders.
The crux being, They are very unlikely to show a pre tax profit for the last financial year and that is already having major implications.
If they can contrive a situation where their design is proven to work, and that the problem is in fact with the manufacturing of the engines, then the corporate responsibility falls elsewhere, and we all know that that fault would be left on CF Moto’s doorstep.
But back to that engine. Here you can see quite clearly how the internal oil-ways on this engine just don’t line up.
Cross drilling like this is always a difficult one, and with such tight tolerances, it is easy to make mistakes, remember, mistakes cost money, but whose money?
Matt goes on to talk about the disruption in the oil flow in much more details and with various nuances which I do thoroughly recommend you going to watch.
But in easy terms, each of those cross drilled oil ways is creating a choke point, and when oil flow slows, As well as an obvious drop in immediate oil pressure, any deposits in the oil are left to settle more, those deposits then build up, and oil flow is reduced further in an ever increasing spiral of doom. On and on it goes until the cams eat themelves.
Add a screen filter into the circuit, and unless it is a high capacity unit, you are asking for trouble. Needless to say, KTM’s tiny screen isn’t going to do anything but bad things to your head, it is and always was a ridiculous idea that just compounds the problem.
So where does that leave owners?
At the mercy of KTM Dealerships who have a less than stellar reputation and are now managed independently of KTM, by the parent company the Pierer Mobility Group?
The same company that is moving more manufacturing to China and India and laying off staff in Europe to IMPROVE product quality?
And the same company that throughout has refused to acknowledge any responsibility for the issue.
To be perfectly honest, I think that it is more likely that the tolerances needed to match the cross-drilled oil-ways was too hard to achieve, and that either CF Moto or Pierer mobility just said “oh well, it’ll be OK” but with such a complex corporate structure and shareholders to pay from a smaller bucket, who do you think the winners and looser’s will be?
The looser’s will be the buyers and the dealers that are good enough to be honest. It certainly wont be the Pierer Mobility Group.
To hear more about the financial woes within the KTM group, and their implications, keep your ears open, as the next video up will tell a fuller story.
It doesn’t sound good for Gas Gas, and Husqvarna may not be so far behind them. No one is talking about its impact on MV Agusta either.